Everything is compromise?

Response to my earlier blog Everything is Evil has been deep and swift. I have received comments and suggestions from more readers of this blog than any other. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

This blog includes a wide variety of responses, each in their own way wrestling with the ethical and physical issues related to travel, health needs, financial resources, social and ecological concerns, ethics, the legitimate need for pleasure, enjoyment and relaxation, and the pursuit of a life-worth-living mindful of both self and others within the crucible of creation.

These questions are obviously important to all of you. To date the blog has been viewed 114 times during the past twenty-four hours. Comments (presently over 70) continue to flow in.

I share below many responses—with names removed respecting anonymity—not in any way to make a point (mine continues to shift throughout the day) but to share how many have engaged this issue. I hope others have found this as helpful as I have. Most are still available on Facebook but I have included some email, messenger, and WordPress comments.

I have not edited for wither length or content. Enjoy.

And yes, what should we discuss next. Cameron we need another suggestion. Love, Dad.

RESPONSES AND COMMENTS
In no particular order

Great chatting about it at coffee this morning. My response to the notion that “Everything is evil.” is that “Everything is a compromise.” It seems especially evident when considering how to become better environmental stewards and attempting to heal what we’ve injured in creation. Much of healing damaging environmental practices means beginning with compromises that enable a transition to better and best practices in our care for the air, water and land that all living things depend on to survive and thrive. Looking forward to more discussion!

As a pretty hard-core introvert, the idea of cramming onto a boat with thousands of strangers is almost terrifying. I’d probably spend the whole cruise holed up in my room — but I can do that at home for much less money!

As usual, Ken, a very thoughtful article. Since you asked for our opinions, let me say that I’ve also been anti-cruise for much the same reasons you mention … but given your particular circumstances, I’d say go for it. And I have confidence that in the process you will make known your preferences for the most ecologically responsible cruise operation possible — thereby helping cruise companies to a better awareness of what are important issues for conscientious potential customers.

I have taken one large ship cruise and don’t intend to do it again, primarily because it was designed so that in order to go anywhere we had to go through the casino. I am not at all attracted to gambling, and the sight of people literally chained to the slot machines by their card keys on lanyards was nauseating. Showtunes are not my jam so the entertainment didn’t appeal either.

However, I very much enjoyed a river cruise in 2023. No casino, only 100 people, very restful. I recommend that kind of cruise.

Not

Have you watched ‘The Good Place’? It’s a great take on human ethics, good vs bad and ‘everything is evil’. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4955642/

May I suggest taking one cruise to Alaska. There’s a lot to do and see besides being packed in with others, casinos, etc. And many who prefer other things besides extravert stuff. Just give it a try once. Great photo ops. If you like it, do it again. If not, do something else. An introvert friend 😊

We have been on 3 cruises. First in the Caribbean, next Alaska and a river cruise in Europe. It is an economical way to travel and you can see some interesting places you would otherwise miss out on. Many cruise companies claim to operate in an environmentally responsible way. They employ thousands of hardworking people who are often from poor countries formerly known as Eastern block or 3rd world. It’s worth considering! The ships will depart whether you’re on one or not.

I have been on three ocean and one river cruise. Two of the ocean cruises were on modestly sized ships and were in the Adriatic and Mediterranean. The third was on a huge ship and began and ended in Dubai. I much preferred the former. The river cruise was on the Danube. Small numbers, pretty luxurious but the way it was set up for our group of travelers meant meal times were set and we had to talk to different strangers each evening….I was in “ work” mode most mealtimes.

The cruises mean seeing a different place each day, tours can be taken, wandering can be done. Yes, there is entertainment and the pool areas can be torturous, not to mention the buffet areas ( was always able to choose dining rooms as part of the package), but there are always quiet spots to be found.

Would I go again…yes…the Greek islands are calling. Alaska is calling too but that would mean flying across the world to get there and what if it is wet or foggy….. Dilemmas. If you decide to go, hope you enjoy the experience and see some wonderful places.

We’ve been on three small cruise ships – about 300 people. We enjoyed the experience – a relaxing way to travel. But there are usually other larger cruise ships at the same ports en route. So strolling around the various ports can be crowded and you keep finding the same touristy gift shops and restaurants in each. One way around this is to research and plan your own excursions ahead. The cruise company excursions are pretty pricey.

It bored me to tears. Never again.

Between the environmental hazard factor and treatment of employees on cruise lines, I’ll stick with my little yacht, sails unfurled, burning one or two tanks of gas a year, watching whales in the Bay of Fundy. You are welcome to come sailing Ken.

I watched one of Rick Steves programs on PBS. He was on a cruise in the Mediterranean. What turned me off was seeing the overcrowding of passengers, hardly any room to move or relax. Suggest you talk with Tim as they’ve been on several.

I have always said you’d need to pay me to go on a cruise – the environmental issue being only one of the main reasons. (The idea of being cooped up on a boat with thousands of other people being another). A friend and her husband are avid cruisers and nothing in her glowing descriptions of their trips appeals to me. But I eat (some) meat, fly to see family once or twice a year, and bank at RBC, and am likely ethically compromised in yet other ways. Does that make my “no-cruising” stance meaningless? I figure it’s at least something I don’t need to add.

My parents found holidaying in the same place year after year to be their solution as age and health issues increased. Admittedly it doesn’t provide the same adventures but it does offer a change of scene and relaxation.

I have no interest whatsoever in going on a cruise, but in saying that, I’m not trying to stake out some sort of moral high ground. I think I’d be claustrophobic, and while I’m not certain, I wouldn’t want to find out while halfway across the ocean (longer flights are bad enough). And yeah, casino culture just turns me right off. As to things being evil (or seemingly more so than they used to be), I don’t accept that. I was asked recently if I were optimistic about the future, and my response was, “not particularly”. But that’s not because of a prevalence of evil, per se. I think we’ve lost our way as a society in a lot of respects, and one of the ways in which we have is that we keep running from problems (wittingly or not) instead of facing them head on. I know that’s true in my personal life, and it’s true in macro terms as well. So maybe we’re all on our respective cruise ships, and some are just more honest about it than others.

Sounds like a floating norovirus party, I did go on a “cruise” 50 yrs ago around the world with Semester at Sea but was young and adaptable. Now, I would never want to be crammed into a space with so many other people. For Alaska, G and I flew to Anchorage and joined a tour of 8 (Naturalist Journeys) It was fabulous. For Hawaii, flew to the Big Island and did our own tour.

We did 10 cruises between 2007 and 2019 with Holland America – smaller ships with interesting tours and programs. We visited every continent and went around the world. It was like living in a hotel that moved for us. I’m glad we did it, but the last one – Alaska – was awful: cleanliness was dismal and we got terribly sick. I don’t think I would do it again

Really enjoyed this Ken. I have exactly the same feeling regarding cruises and share similar struggles with ethical investments, although the little I have to invest is a “ drop in the bucket”. It seems many of us struggle with “moral vs ethical” ….I don’t quite see it as “ evil” but rather as being human

After reading how the whale life was so greatly enhanced during Covid, no cruises for us. Same for the Galapagos Islands. And probably all ocean life. I think David Foster Wallace says it best in “A Supposedly Fun Thing I Will Never Do Again” “There is something about a mass market luxury cruise that is unbearably sad. Like most unbearably sad things, it seems incredibly elusive and complex in its causes yet simple in its effect: on board the Nadir (especially at night, when all the ship’s structured fun and reassurances and gaiety ceased) I felt despair. The word “despair” is overused and banalized now, but it’s a serious word, and I’m using it seriously. It’s close to what people call dread or angst, but it’s not these things, quite. It’s more like wanting to die in order to escape the unbearable sadness of knowing I’m small and weak and selfish and going, without doubt, to die.” For me, I just couldn’t get the knack of suspending disbelief that that trip of unceasing consumption — pigging out, drinking, watching entertainers entertain the insatiably entertained — was not bizarre. The kids could do it because of the water slides.

While I have certain concerns about cruising, it’s just about the only vacation option for us who have mobility issues. We avoid the huge ships, always check the environment and human rights protocols of any line. (Full disclosure HAL is our favourite) The secret is to not think of it as being crammed in with thousands but rather at a fabulous floating resort with activity options galore. Don’t want to gamble? Don’t gamble! (There are ships that don’t have casinos) Finding the public areas too peopley? Meditate on your verandah as you watch the azure seas flow past!

We’ve sailed with up to 2000 and have never felt ‘crammed!’ What we did feel was gloriously fed, well entertained, and exposed to cultures we would never have seen otherwise. We do tend to look for shore excursions other than those offered by the cruise line. Our latest cruise was HAL 31 days through the Panama Canal and we’d do it again in a heartbeat.

Avoid this temptation, Ken. As you know cruises are an environmental disaster, as are many of our activities, but why add to the problem if you don’t have to?

This is a well written piece Ken – my comments are to consider an Alaska cruise but also do your research (or have a cruise expert help) to find a ship and company that engages in sustainable practices and takes steps to be environmentally friendly. There are smaller cruise lines that cater to different ages and activities – it’s not all casinos and tanning stations. Jeremy and I did a three day repositioning cruise years ago to test the waters – we enjoyed it but as it was from San Fran to Vancouver we didn’t exactly see icebergs and grizzlies. I’d go again – Alaska or Caribbean, but would look at some of the more intimate styled vessels

NOT to cruise

Loved the article and it brought to mind the issues reflected on or were triggered as I pondered the points you bring up. I don’t know if everything is evil or if everything is good… but there sure is a lot that isn’t Life Giving! The big question for me is what about our way of life is sustainable? And is there anything life giving in that possibility? I have just completed reading Brian McClarren’s “Life After Doom…for the third time. Morbidly life giving and very prophetic. Maybe read it while your cruising and really feel conflicted! Hope you’re doing well!

Nope; we went 20 years ago, but now that I know more about it I wouldn’t go again.

Paula and I enjoy cruising and would second Stephen’s observations. Ooooo – love this thread! Your son is correct: everything IS evil, or has the potential to be. And it sounds like you are seeking an affordable family holiday that all can participate in. I have never cruised, but a family member who has been on multiple cruises loves the Alaskan cruise. Whatever you choose, may your trip include great food and conversations.

Cruise!

For Ken, About cruising. Would there be a nice shady/sunny place that you could all stay and enjoy and take day trips? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/nov/25/i-feel-guilty-and-angry-the-captain-turned-campaigner-trying-to-keep-cruise-ships-at-bay and the video https://youtu.be/EZlgM_u4Ghg

“Oh, no, Mr. Frodo; when there is good in the world there is still a beacon of light”

Well apart from the “evil question” I found it interesting that the cruising issue has come up in your family too. Because of Jim now being in a wheelchair our family thinks it is the obvious travel option for us as well. In addition to all the concerns you have raised, it is totally divergent from how we have always traveled. We loved to move to the areas of towns where locals hung out more than tourists. The idea all being jammed in with thousands of affluent travelers does not hold a great deal of appeal at this point! Alaska has also been suggested as a good place to start. So who knows what the future holds. But thank you Ken for your thoughtful article!

So does everyone’s kids encourage their parents to cruise.  We have the same from my son.  “You would love it Mom” – really?  Stuck on a ship with dozens/hundreds of people I don’t know, no garden, no puppies, no familiar daily walk, not my own bed?  I don’t want a spa, don’t want to sit in a hot tub or swim in a pool.  I once was tempted to see if we could take one of the working ships up to Alaska as that somewhat appealed to me but I’m passed that now.  I don’t want to fly, I have no longer have a desire to travel the world – same son gave us virtual reality glasses so we can feel like we are walking through the world’s museums and art galleries with the purchase of an app, all from the comfort of my “stressless chair” and there are no crowds to fight. I empathize with you.

I’ve been on two cruises. I disliked them both. Here’s why: The amount of food waste was astounding, and distressing. The amount of garbage produced, ditto. There was an institutionalized racism on the Holland America ship, where all the engineering and entertainment crew were white, through various levels in between, to the cleaning crew which was all Indonesian. (I noticed it less on the Carnival cruise, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.) Our favourite waiter was Filipino. He had a degree in engineering but was waiting tables in a bar. He had to sign a one-year contract, during which time he had few visits home. The entertainment crew, on the other hand, signed 3-month contracts. As someone else noted, all routes from the rooms to the public areas led through the casino – where people were smoking. The effect of the ships arriving in port is horrific. Towns are flooded with thousands of tourists all at once, and most of them are in search of the shops that have been promoted on board (for a fee). Those business owners who choose not to advertise on board can get left out. I hate to say it, Ken, but I think you might feel uncomfortable. Would a small-group guided tour meet your needs instead?

A very worthwhile conversation … and a difficult one. Maybe a complex one … or are those choices (especially in the “business as usual/business is business”) really so complex? Does this come down to personal desires (selfishness?) in the end, even among corporations or governments, whether owners, investors, politicians, managers, even employees? How complicated is it, really, to think beyond one’s self? Unnatural? Hmmm…

We finally booked a cruise we said we would never do! We with our aging bodies, need for CPAP decided sleeping in the same bed was required. We chose a smaller ship (1000) to Circumnavigate the British Isles. We get to choose what we do each day for shore excursions and enjoy good food and a good sleep every night. We will not do this often, and perhaps not again. It is worth a try! Our Carbon footprint is small so I justify it as a lesser evil.

The notable Anglican theologian, John MacQuarrie [‘Principles of Christian Theology’], looks at evil as a [our choice of] sliding back into ‘non-being’, as in this quote from https://thinkingreed.wordpress.com/2015/12/11/macquarrie-on-divine-self-giving-and-the-risk-of-creation/: “. . . A side-effect of this ‘going out’ [ie ‘this giving’] of the divine being is the existence of what we usually refer to as ‘natural’ evil. Finite, particular things, being limited, have an in-built potential to lapse back into nonbeing. “These beings have been created out of nothing, and it is possible for them to slip back into nothing or to advance into the potentialities for being which belong to them. Evil is this slipping back toward nothing, a reversal and defeat of the creative process” (p. 255). . . “